I spoke to Sally Hayden about her book My Fourth Time, We Drowned. 

It's about people who tried to cross the Mediterranean Sea from Africa to Europe but ended up locked in detention centres in Libya. The book won the Orwell Prize and was shortlisted for the Baillie Gifford Prize. She describes it as a 'book of evidence'.

We talked about: 

• her early reporting on the story while working for Vice
• the role played by business cards
• the importance of making yourself contactable 
• having to respond to sources at all hours
• how the story took over her life
• struggling to get the story commissioned
• how journalism awards helped change that
• warnings from MI6 that her life was in danger 
• working out what the book would be 
• finding an agent and publisher who believe in what you're doing
• giving away her prize money

You can buy her book here: 

https://uk.bookshop.org/p/books/my-fourth-time-we-drowned-seeking-refuge-on-the-world-s-deadliest-migration-route-sally-hayden/6026367

She recommended Against A Tide of Evil by Mukesh Kapila:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Against-Tide-Evil-Whistleblower-Twenty-First/dp/0991099338

And you can buy my books here:

https://uk.bookshop.org/contributors/andrew-hankinson

Thanks for listening.